Curse

Racthoh · Aug 13, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Scythe should just not hit multiple targets at all, one of the many power creeps introduced in Nightfall that still lingers today. The weapon with the highest damage ceiling also hits multiple targets? It's a horrible concept.

But that won't change so oh well.

If you want to make Dervishes the best with scythes then attack skills with activation times need to not be usable with the scythe itself. Tack on a 50% fail to Eremite's and Mystic with four or less Mysticism. Divide the scythe's damage amongst the three targets it hits, increased by 5% for each rank in Mysticism to a maximum of 100%. At a 12 spec Mysticism the scythe will hit for 100% weapon damage on the three targets, those of the Dervish secondary hit for 33% with three targets, 50% with two. Even if the Dervish is not at that 12 Mysticism, let's say nine, then you're still hitting three targets at 78%, two at 95%.

angelsarc · Aug 13, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I like my suggestion for Mysticism better than the OP. Racthoh's idea is pretty good.

zelgadissan · Aug 13, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

/signed for Racthoh's idea - although I think it would confuse a lot of players when they read the description.

Oh, and unless we were just saying 12 Mysticism = automatic 100%, that would only be 93% damage against three targets. 14 would max it out.

IronSheik · Aug 13, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I can't say I like racthoh's idea, because I never use mysticism in my scythe builds and don't plan to.

Limiting a weapons damage due to primary attribute doesn't seem right, granted the sins critical strikes and strength is pseudo, they can still hit max damage without it.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Limiting a weapons damage due to primary attribute doesn't seem right, granted the sins critical strikes and strength is pseudo, they can still hit max damage without it.

Critical Strikes is the Assassin's energy management. It's also necessary to maintain Critical Agility and Critical Defenses.

HawkofStorms · Aug 13, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

The damage reduction affect of Racthoh's is a bit too extreme. You'd have to completely rework the damage figures on everything to balance it. Most Dervishes don't hit 12 mysticism. That would basically eliminate the ability to run Earth or Wind prayers ever or else risk a substantial damage reduction. This would just make Dervishes worse. Nerfing other professions ability to use Scythes isn't enough. You also have to buff Dervishes ability to use them so they can be on par with a warrior using an axe. Otherwise, they still won't be that effective.

Konker2020 · Aug 13, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

No, I very strongly dislike this idea, it would completely kill the point of using a scythe on any other profession, not slightly hinder it as you seem to think.

A better solution in my opinion (yes I am veering from the topic of this thread, I've already answered your question) would be to increase the area that can be hit by the dervish per rank in mysticism. Currently it is ~90* in front of the player, maybe increase the range by 6* in each direction for each rank of Mysticism, for a total of 12* per rank. This would allow for a full 270* range for Dervishes only at 15 Mysticism, the only spot they would not be able to hit would be the full 90* behind them, I dunno, seems like a good idea to me.

pinguinius · Aug 13, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Most Dervishes don't hit 12 mysticism. That would basically eliminate the ability to run Earth or Wind prayers ever or else risk a substantial damage reduction. This would just make Dervishes worse.

This. Any Dervish wanting to play around with EDA or Onslaught or a conjure or whatever would do less damage. Buff mysticism itself, or its skills, don't force me to get 12 mysticism for Heart of Fury and mediocre energy management because you're annoyed that sins make better scythe users.

Kattar · Aug 13, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Most Dervishes don't hit 12 mysticism.

I think that was kinda his point. Rather it be a little underpowered than OP from the start.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Aug 13, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Just like the OP's idea Racthoh's is gimping the Derv by forcing it to put points into Mysticism. As the attribute line stands now it offers no incentive to use for anything other than running the Elite Forms. If this is the best you guys can come up with leave it be. You are only nerfing your selves to try to nerf others because they can do it better than you. By making these changes it forces scythe users to put points into the line or further gimp their ability to use their own weapon.

The idea of hitting addition foes over the 3 limit due to the amount of points in Mysticism is a step in the right direction, but reducing the number of foes or the damage dealt is harming the derv more than helping.

Arkantos · Aug 13, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

Just like the OP's idea Racthoh's is gimping the Derv by forcing it to put points into Mysticism. As the attribute line stands now it offers no incentive to use for anything other than running the Elite Forms. If this is the best you guys can come up with leave it be. You are only nerfing your selves to try to nerf others because they can do it better than you. By making these changes it forces scythe users to put points into the line or further gimp their ability to use their own weapon.

The idea of hitting addition foes over the 3 limit due to the amount of points in Mysticism is a step in the right direction, but reducing the number of foes or the damage dealt is harming the derv more than helping.

Why wouldn't you spec into mysticism? Right now the only real reason to run a dervish is to run avatars. Earth/wind prayers elites are bad, and warriors/assassins run scythe elites better than dervishes.

Also, that definitely isn't a step in the right direction. Scythes being able to hit up to 3 foes was a bad design from the start, letting dervishes hit even more would be just dumb.

zwei2stein · Aug 13, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Scythe attack costs are too easily fueled by other classes.

I would suggest remaking dervish akin to elementalist:

1) Raise all enery costs of attack skills to 10 or 15 points from 5 and 10 respectivelly.

2) Add "Attunement" skill: Rework Zealous Renewal: returns 50% of attack skill cost +1 energy. ~ zero duration on 0 mysticism, 10 second duration per point, 5 second recharge, 1/4 activation, 5e cost,

3) Move Attackers insight to Mysticism, it is GoLE of attack skills now.

4) Limit WE energy gain to per attack and not per hit.

Voila, noone except dervishes can fuel scythe efficiently.

Mysticism is not required per se, but 1 point will do.

pinguinius · Aug 13, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why wouldn't you spec into mysticism? Right now the only real reason to run a dervish is to run avatars. Earth/wind prayers elites are bad, and warriors/assassins run scythe elites better than dervishes.

To do something different? It's not like Guild Wars PvE is a super serious min/maxing affair. Plus, the forms other than Dwayna kind of suck. Melandru would be good, but you have to constantly spend 25+10 energy to maintain it, leaving little time for much else. Grenth is OK, but nothing great. Lyssa's extra energy is useless and in HM the monsters cast so fast it's hard to hit them during skill activation, and any skill that you could hit them during would be better off interrupted. Balthazar is useless because of AoHM.

And for PvP, anything other than Wounding Strike is inferior.

FireWhale · Aug 13, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

No, the purpose of a class is to be unique. Anet is doing it right in buffing earth/wind prayers to make dervs stronger.

Even still, you're just gimping other classes from using a scythe. What good does that do a dervish?

Lishy · Aug 13, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Ah, but a scythe isn't about single-target damage, it's about three-target damage.

Three-target damage that's easier said than done. A scythe has really weird range. Like, they only hit adjacent directly in front of you.

A lot of people say to ball up enemies, but once again, easier said than done. Especially in the heat of combat.

Cuilan · Aug 13, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

I don't run more than 9 in mysticism unless I'm using avatars for certain areas. So I don't approve of this.

IronSheik · Aug 13, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why wouldn't you spec into mysticism? Right now the only real reason to run a dervish is to run avatars. Earth/wind prayers elites are bad, and warriors/assassins run scythe elites better than dervishes

Because mysticism is near useless, along with the avatars for general PvE

I've logged over 2k hours into my derv, and I've done everything on it, and I personally find zealous vow as the best elite for DPS. I play with H/H so I don't always have an uber team clearing mobs in 15 seconds and can spam down to 0 energy then run into the next gruppe.

Yes sins/warriors are better than them, but dervishes still exist.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 13, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

A lot of people say to ball up enemies, but once again, easier said than done. Especially in the heat of combat.

I don't even need to try to ball up enemies. They get in range on their own.

Hitting three targets is easy, and if you are only hitting one target I suggest putting away the sword and using an actual scythe ^_^

superraptors · Aug 14, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

i can say the same thing about sins using spears and scythes and other classes using dif weapons

cause a sin can get a deepwound with vicious more often then a paragon overpowered?

/notsigned

reaper with no name · Aug 14, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

No, the purpose of a class is to be unique. Anet is doing it right in buffing earth/wind prayers to make dervs stronger.

Even still, you're just gimping other classes from using a scythe. What good does that do a dervish?

It makes the dervish the best at something, because currently, there is no reason to use them, because anything they can bring to the table, a W/D or A/D can do better. By the way, they're also better at using earth and wind prayers than the dervish is too thanks to their vastly superior energy management. Buffing those will just leave the dervish in the same boat it's in already.

Where were all you guys during the discussion? This stuff has already been covered. The dervish sucks. It's a known fact, just like how mending sucks.